Andrean

Join the discussion on all the major topics in Region football!
Ratball
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:45 am

Re: Andrean

Post by Ratball »

Andrean has 400 students. Why would they be actively excluding students from their student body? They need bodies to stay open. That argument makes no sense at all.

Hammond Noll needs a multiplier. They should be in 3A.

Yes, I think Hobart and Lowell have way more than 330 student athletes. The national average is 57% of high school students participate in sports. No reason to believe Hobart or Lowell would be less than half the national average. Even if they were 50% (still way below average) that would give them 600 or so.

Mike Roe
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:20 pm

Re: Andrean

Post by Mike Roe »

Mike OMG your not involved. The Nation omg. The Nation. Go Niners !!

warrior
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:52 pm

Re: Andrean

Post by warrior »

Ratball wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:30 am
Andrean has 400 students. Why would they be actively excluding students from their student body? They need bodies to stay open. That argument makes no sense at all.

Hammond Noll needs a multiplier. They should be in 3A.

Yes, I think Hobart and Lowell have way more than 330 student athletes. The national average is 57% of high school students participate in sports. No reason to believe Hobart or Lowell would be less than half the national average. Even if they were 50% (still way below average) that would give them 600 or so.
You don't even make sense! In fact, I don't think you even understand how the multiplier works given your post. Noll shouldn't be bumped up to 3A, they should drop their program! And I'm not suggesting you exclude anybody, I'm saying that Andrean's student body isn't the same as your run of the mill public because they have open borders and an overwhelming majority of their students participate in extra curricular activities. Lastly, I have no clue about Hobart but I can guarantee you Lowell does not have 50% of their students participating in athletics; Not even close.

Bearcat Nation
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:13 pm

Re: Andrean

Post by Bearcat Nation »

Ratball wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:30 am
Andrean has 400 students. Why would they be actively excluding students from their student body? They need bodies to stay open. That argument makes no sense at all.
The tuition and fees (in excess of $10,000 per student per year at some) that p/p's charge essentially exclude students from attending. Where does a family send little Johnny if that family can't afford a p/p? Public school.

Entrance exams allow p/p's to exclude students that public schools MUST admit. Where does a little Johnny go if he fails the p/p entrance exam?
Public School.

P/p's can expel students much, much easier than a public school can. If little Johnny is a "problem" student, where does he go? Public school, where school officials have their hands tied when it comes to expulsions and have a much harder time getting rid of him (compared to a p/p).

These little Johnnies count towards a public school's enrollment figures the IHSAA uses to classify athletic teams. The p/p's don't have those little Johnnies in their student body.

P/p's can, and do, exclude students from their student body that public schools cannot exclude and must admit. A comparison of a p/p student body to a public school student body within an IHSAA athletic class generally isn't an "apples to apples" comparison.
October 21, 2011: Wheeler 12, Andrean 7
Click here

Ratball
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:45 am

Re: Andrean

Post by Ratball »

The socioeconomic argument makes some sense. That is more likely to translate into kids getting lessons and trainers and gym memberships, etc.

Expelling kids, the entrance exams, etc. are all bogus arguments. I can guarantee you that Andrean is probably accepting 98% of the kids who are applying there. I bet over a quarter of the kids there are using a voucher.

The point of bringing up Noll is that, by these arguments, Noll has every advantage that Andrean has, and yet their football program is not competitive at all. The fact is that Andrean has built a great program through a lot of hard work and development. The baseball program has the all time winningest coach in Indiana HS history. The football program certainly has had a few studs roll through there as well, but many of those kids come into HS having never played a down of football. They coach up 15-20 of them and they thrive. Most of the team are benchwarmers.

AD#8
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:34 pm

Re: Andrean

Post by AD#8 »

Ratball wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:17 pm
The socioeconomic argument makes some sense. That is more likely to translate into kids getting lessons and trainers and gym memberships, etc.

Expelling kids, the entrance exams, etc. are all bogus arguments. I can guarantee you that Andrean is probably accepting 98% of the kids who are applying there. I bet over a quarter of the kids there are using a voucher.

The point of bringing up Noll is that, by these arguments, Noll has every advantage that Andrean has, and yet their football program is not competitive at all. The fact is that Andrean has built a great program through a lot of hard work and development. The baseball program has the all time winningest coach in Indiana HS history. The football program certainly has had a few studs roll through there as well, but many of those kids come into HS having never played a down of football. They coach up 15-20 of them and they thrive. Most of the team are benchwarmers.
Please provide your source of 98% acceptance rate, since you guarantee that is the number gaining acceptance. Their QB, WR, and RB didn't have to be coached up, they came to Andrean as known commodities, nothing was built there. Their baseball coach doesn't have secret sauce, he too gets studs that have been studs for most of their lives, again not a lot of building up there. Bishop Noll has had little success in any of their programs, and is an awful comparison. Andrean absolutely has a winning culture, and kids know that they are likely to see the field there way before they would at CP, LC, Merrillville, which is a good choice for them, but don't fool yourself into thinking they are doing anything different than Public Schools, they just have more quality Jimmies and Joes.

After I re-read my post for grammatical errors, I started thinking about something else. Andrean has had 5 coaches win a state title during their time there, the Karras brothers, St. Germain, Mason, and now Skinner. With the exception of Skinner, the other 4 all have something in common, they all coached at public schools and never won another state title. Mason still has time and has been to a few semi-state games, but that fact alone shows you how much more difficult the job is when you have to win with what resides in school boundaries as opposed to getting what amounts to an all-star team handed to you. Like it or not, private schools have a decided athletic advantage when a particular sport is a priority, period.

Dann Ellenwood
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Andrean

Post by Dann Ellenwood »

Bearcat Nation wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:29 pm
Ratball wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:30 am
Andrean has 400 students. Why would they be actively excluding students from their student body? They need bodies to stay open. That argument makes no sense at all.
The tuition and fees (in excess of $10,000 per student per year at some) that p/p's charge essentially exclude students from attending. Where does a family send little Johnny if that family can't afford a p/p? Public school.

Entrance exams allow p/p's to exclude students that public schools MUST admit. Where does a little Johnny go if he fails the p/p entrance exam?
Public School.

P/p's can expel students much, much easier than a public school can. If little Johnny is a "problem" student, where does he go? Public school, where school officials have their hands tied when it comes to expulsions and have a much harder time getting rid of him (compared to a p/p).

These little Johnnies count towards a public school's enrollment figures the IHSAA uses to classify athletic teams. The p/p's don't have those little Johnnies in their student body.

P/p's can, and do, exclude students from their student body that public schools cannot exclude and must admit. A comparison of a p/p student body to a public school student body within an IHSAA athletic class generally isn't an "apples to apples" comparison.
School Choice Program (aka vouchers).

Ratball
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:45 am

Re: Andrean

Post by Ratball »

AD#8 wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:41 pm
Ratball wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:17 pm
The socioeconomic argument makes some sense. That is more likely to translate into kids getting lessons and trainers and gym memberships, etc.

Expelling kids, the entrance exams, etc. are all bogus arguments. I can guarantee you that Andrean is probably accepting 98% of the kids who are applying there. I bet over a quarter of the kids there are using a voucher.

The point of bringing up Noll is that, by these arguments, Noll has every advantage that Andrean has, and yet their football program is not competitive at all. The fact is that Andrean has built a great program through a lot of hard work and development. The baseball program has the all time winningest coach in Indiana HS history. The football program certainly has had a few studs roll through there as well, but many of those kids come into HS having never played a down of football. They coach up 15-20 of them and they thrive. Most of the team are benchwarmers.
Please provide your source of 98% acceptance rate, since you guarantee that is the number gaining acceptance. Their QB, WR, and RB didn't have to be coached up, they came to Andrean as known commodities, nothing was built there. Their baseball coach doesn't have secret sauce, he too gets studs that have been studs for most of their lives, again not a lot of building up there. Bishop Noll has had little success in any of their programs, and is an awful comparison. Andrean absolutely has a winning culture, and kids know that they are likely to see the field there way before they would at CP, LC, Merrillville, which is a good choice for them, but don't fool yourself into thinking they are doing anything different than Public Schools, they just have more quality Jimmies and Joes.

After I re-read my post for grammatical errors, I started thinking about something else. Andrean has had 5 coaches win a state title during their time there, the Karras brothers, St. Germain, Mason, and now Skinner. With the exception of Skinner, the other 4 all have something in common, they all coached at public schools and never won another state title. Mason still has time and has been to a few semi-state games, but that fact alone shows you how much more difficult the job is when you have to win with what resides in school boundaries as opposed to getting what amounts to an all-star team handed to you. Like it or not, private schools have a decided athletic advantage when a particular sport is a priority, period.
Interesting. 5 head coaches with titles, yet they’ve only won state three times. Divine intervention?

I don’t have a specific source on the acceptance rate. I just know they aren’t turning away many kids. Fine. Maybe it’s 93%. That extra 8-9 kids they would get each year still puts them firmly in 2A. Explain the dramatic drop in enrollment over the last 10-15 years at Andrean then. Sounds like everyone wants to go there and no one does.

DP has absolutely built that program from nothing. If you don’t think he has a secret sauce, you are mistaken. One ingredient is that he probably works harder, and has for 40 years, than any coach in the area.

Why is Bishop Noll an awful comparison? Because they don’t have a winning culture? What has stopped them from building that culture? Because they should have all the same advantages Andrean has. They can weed out students with their extra tough entrance exam. They can expel problem students. So Andrean has built that winning culture and that has attracted some students.

Nutsy
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:16 pm

Re: Andrean

Post by Nutsy »

AD#8 wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:41 pm
Ratball wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:17 pm
The socioeconomic argument makes some sense. That is more likely to translate into kids getting lessons and trainers and gym memberships, etc.

Expelling kids, the entrance exams, etc. are all bogus arguments. I can guarantee you that Andrean is probably accepting 98% of the kids who are applying there. I bet over a quarter of the kids there are using a voucher.

The point of bringing up Noll is that, by these arguments, Noll has every advantage that Andrean has, and yet their football program is not competitive at all. The fact is that Andrean has built a great program through a lot of hard work and development. The baseball program has the all time winningest coach in Indiana HS history. The football program certainly has had a few studs roll through there as well, but many of those kids come into HS having never played a down of football. They coach up 15-20 of them and they thrive. Most of the team are benchwarmers.
Please provide your source of 98% acceptance rate, since you guarantee that is the number gaining acceptance. Their QB, WR, and RB didn't have to be coached up, they came to Andrean as known commodities, nothing was built there. Their baseball coach doesn't have secret sauce, he too gets studs that have been studs for most of their lives, again not a lot of building up there. Bishop Noll has had little success in any of their programs, and is an awful comparison. Andrean absolutely has a winning culture, and kids know that they are likely to see the field there way before they would at CP, LC, Merrillville, which is a good choice for them, but don't fool yourself into thinking they are doing anything different than Public Schools, they just have more quality Jimmies and Joes.

After I re-read my post for grammatical errors, I started thinking about something else. Andrean has had 5 coaches win a state title during their time there, the Karras brothers, St. Germain, Mason, and now Skinner. With the exception of Skinner, the other 4 all have something in common, they all coached at public schools and never won another state title. Mason still has time and has been to a few semi-state games, but that fact alone shows you how much more difficult the job is when you have to win with what resides in school boundaries as opposed to getting what amounts to an all-star team handed to you. Like it or not, private schools have a decided athletic advantage when a particular sport is a priority, period.
The last two sentences sums it all up; "all star team" and "athletic advantage"


Nut
Come on down to El Monte Slim's (Wheeler's best kept secret)
Wheeler, IN . 46393

AD#8
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:34 pm

Re: Andrean

Post by AD#8 »

Interesting. 5 head coaches with titles, yet they’ve only won state three times. Divine intervention?

I don’t have a specific source on the acceptance rate. I just know they aren’t turning away many kids. Fine. Maybe it’s 93%. That extra 8-9 kids they would get each year still puts them firmly in 2A. Explain the dramatic drop in enrollment over the last 10-15 years at Andrean then. Sounds like everyone wants to go there and no one does.

DP has absolutely built that program from nothing. If you don’t think he has a secret sauce, you are mistaken. One ingredient is that he probably works harder, and has for 40 years, than any coach in the area.

Why is Bishop Noll an awful comparison? Because they don’t have a winning culture? What has stopped them from building that culture? Because they should have all the same advantages Andrean has. They can weed out students with their extra tough entrance exam. They can expel problem students. So Andrean has built that winning culture and that has attracted some students.
[/quote]

Ahh you are correct, but you actually strengthen my point by pointing out my error. I went back and looked and 6 Andrean coaches have been to the championship game as HC of the 9ers. Since Skinner is still the coach, he doesn't get thrown in the mix, but the other 5, Karras x2, McCormick, St. Germain, and Mason never went to another game at Lucas Oil when they coached at a public school, unless they paid for the ticket themselves. So wrong number of titles, but point is still taken.

The old guarantee 98% acceptance rate then dropped it to 93% when questioned. I could probably get you to 85% by lunch if I keep the pressure on.

Dave has done a great job with the program, but he has no secret sauce, just a lot of really good players that are on one team, playing against inferior competition. When they get moved up due to success factor, and play against equals, the result is always the same, early summer. He doesn't work harder than anyone and there no way to quantify it, so it's not worth the argument, he beats 2A public schools that are confined to players in their districts, the end.

Post Reply